<Josh_2> welcome to fascism <nerds> [Twitter] PM says military may be used to support police in enforcing new rules. Thats big news folks - Paul Waugh (@paulwaugh) September 22, 2020 <Milo-> welcome to fascism, because people can't stick to following simple rules to help their own country or even a fellow man? [15:17] *** lg188 (~lg188@ has quit: Quit: leaving <Milo-> You are either a selfish twat or a fascist. That's the world we live in. <Josh_2> [15:18] <nerds> [[image/png] (28.5KiB)] <Josh_2> <nerds> [[image/png] (27.7KiB)] <Josh_2> something doesn't look right about this <Nickli> "me me me me... me too" <Josh_2> I didn't realize it was so easy to get a population to accept the craziest of nonsense <ajak> Josh_2: your gov is fudging the death numbers too? [15:19] <Josh_2> The gov was always increasing the numbers <pixelherodev> Ah wait, USE=-X I meant <Josh_2> they had to go back and change them because they had someone who died in a car accident down as a wu flu death <Josh_2> ʕ·͡ᴥ·ʔ <ajak> except the party in power has a vested interest in the numbers being low <Nickli> i doubt china only has 166 active cases [15:20] <Josh_2> Milo-: I didn't realize all it took was a scawwy wiwus to get you to accept military rule luuul <Chainsaw> I get to sit in my home office with better internet than I would get in the open plan office. Nobody walks up to interrupt me with questions. <Josh_2> and many folks claim they wouldn't have supported the nazis if they were germans <ajak> Josh_2: sounds like you should like the virus more then <Josh_2> lul <Chainsaw> The only thing I need back is slot availability for online grocery delivery in the supermarket ;) [15:21] <pixelherodev> Josh_2: what looks wrong about those numbers? <Chainsaw> As I currently have to stand in the queue for my shopping like a savage. <Josh_2> pixelherodev: very high cases but no subsequent increase in deaths <Nickli> well the longer the virus gets to spread freely it is more time the economy is disrupted <pixelherodev> So? <pixelherodev> Most cases don't end in death [15:22] <Chainsaw> It's not the death that's the risk being mitigated. <Josh_2> Funny how we have almost the same number of daily cases as we did at the peak number of deaths <Chainsaw> It's the sheer amount of people requiring specialist respiritory care in one place. <Josh_2> when the pandemic started <Josh_2> but noooow we have almost no deaths xD <Chainsaw> Which is the NHS is not well placed to provide. <Nickli> Josh_2 the weak are already dead <Josh_2> Nickli: exactly <ajak> Josh_2: do you realize that a system gets better at handling something disruptive like this the longer it goes? [15:23] <Josh_2> The weak are already dead <pixelherodev> Ha <pixelherodev> Anyone claiming "the weak is already dead" is probably weaker than all those who've died. <Nickli> or smart enough to not contract it <Josh_2> 3/4 of our deaths were in care homes <Josh_2> the median length of care home stays before deaths is 5 months <Josh_2> funny that <ajak> Josh_2: source?' <Josh_2> [15:24] <nerds> [Coronavirus: Almost 30,000 'excess' care homes deaths - BBC News] <pixelherodev> "It's mostly just old people dying" is still one of the most horrifying justifications I've heard. <Josh_2> justification for what? <Josh_2> Imagine thinking we should subjugate and entire population because people who are going to die in 5 months are gonna die today instead [15:25] <Josh_2> big brain thinking that is <Josh_2> even though the lockdowns dont work anyway lull <Milo-> Lockdowns do work, if people who break lockdown are actually punished for breaking the lockdown [15:26] <Josh_2> No <ajak> you're right, no correlation between the average cases per day and lockdowns <Josh_2> they don't work <Milo-> but selfish twats are like "I'm not old, lockdown doesn't fit for my personal life" <Josh_2> So what? <Josh_2> They don't work <Milo-> so they break the lockdown and go ahead and spread the virus to more people <Josh_2> drool <Milo-> even if they themselves don't get killed. <Josh_2> You are happy to accept fascism over nothing [15:27] <Josh_2> you would have made a good SS member Milo- <ajak> no one has said anything in support of that dude lol <Josh_2> It's implied <doc235> arresting or fining people because they break lockdown is a terrible way to do it. and if theuy decide to use military as enforcers it will start a civil war <Milo-> If you are too retarded to only think of yourself. *** akar (~akar@2a01:e0a:d5:f450:92dd:a01b:ffce:7703) has joined channel #gentoo-chat <ajak> "i can't make a good argument so i have to make a strawman i am very smart" <Josh_2> Milo-: It appears that in this room I am one of the few people who can think for themselves <Milo-> it would have never gone to that if people weren't being massive bellends. <Milo-> virus prevention is about controlling masses [15:28] <Josh_2> I am the only one who has provided empirical evidence, you are just making dumb emotive arguments Milo- <Milo-> Armies are created for controlling masses. <Milo-> Religions are made for controlling masses. <Milo-> Countries are made for controlling masses. <Milo-> Can you see a pattern? <Josh_2> Yes, you are easily controlled <Josh_2> like a good dog on a leash <Josh_2> you will roll over <Nickli> Police are made for controlling masses, Armies are to control caos <Nickli> *chaos <Josh_2> doc235: won't get a civil war in the UK, we are unarmed ¯\_(ツ)_/¯ [15:29] <Josh_2> mostly <Josh_2> it is quite clear that most people have been scared into accepting their new totalitarian overlords <doc235> yea. will; happen here though <Josh_2> I will have to come over and join in <ratrace> Josh_2: _you_ aren't, _they_ are <ajak> doc235: not enough americans care enough about not killing each other <Nickli> they have brexited, they can do whatever they want now [15:30] <Josh_2> No reason for new restrictions <Josh_2> and yet here we are <Milo-> totalitarian overlords. oh my.. A bit melodramatic. You are being asked to stay the fudge out of the streets. Stay at home. <Josh_2> For what reason? <Josh_2> Show me the reason for them <Milo-> They want to open up the country. <doc235> why <Josh_2> give me the empirical evidence, show me the correlation between the new cases and actual deaths <Josh_2> do it <ajak> simply so people don't die <Josh_2> you can't because it doesn't exist! <Milo-> as long as there are more and more cases every day, there is no opening the country for travel <Milo-> and thus the country will lose more and more money due to testing and limitations [15:31] <Josh_2> I am being forced with the threat of fines to "isolate" over NOTHING <ajak> your country ostensibly being better at managing it doesn't mean it can NEVER get worse <Josh_2> Such nonsense <Milo-> crocodile tears <ajak> you absolute mongoloid <Josh_2> <nerds> [Coronavirus tests too sensitive, Oxford University academic warns] <Josh_2> We have record numbers of tests [15:32] <Josh_2> with overly sensitive tests <Josh_2> and I'm the mongoloid ajak <ajak> tests!!!! everything is safe because tests!!! <Josh_2> Actually no <ajak> i don't know what that means but tests!!!1 <Josh_2> I have always argued that number of cases is directly correlated with the number of tests <Josh_2> which is why we have so many cases and no deaths <Josh_2> which is why this entire thing is stupid <ajak> i' [15:33] <pixelherodev> If a civial war happens in the US, it's because people *want* one. <shadowdao> Intermission. <pixelherodev> There've been people itching for a round two for a long time. They just need an excuse. * shadowdao gets more popcorn. <pixelherodev> civil* <ajak> i'm not confident enough in your analysis being better than the *entire* global medical community that i want to bet hundreds of thousands of lives on it <Josh_2> muh twust the experts <Josh_2> funny coming from a marxist <Josh_2> you would think all these experts would be capitalist pigs [15:34] <Josh_2> untrustable <pixelherodev> What does economic system have to do with anything? <ajak> a medical degree and medical expertise has nothing to do with economies lol <pixelherodev> There are fascist capitalist states <Milo-> Poor baby... must be hard not being allowed to be selfish twat all around :D <pixelherodev> "Capitalist" isn't an insult or a compliment lol <Josh_2> Milo-: nice empirical argument <Josh_2> I love your evidence [15:35] <Josh_2> It appears only I have provided any evidence at all <pixelherodev> Josh_2: actually, it appears nobody has <Chainsaw> You guys are as tiresome as the news and social media at the moment. <pixelherodev> You provided raw data, and then insisted that it proves your point, without actually proving that. <Chainsaw> Is there really nothing else to talk about? *** sokan (~sokan@unaffiliated/totaloblivion) has quit: Ping timeout: 272 seconds <pixelherodev> Nobody else even bothered with that much. <Josh_2> pixelherodev: more than everyone else <pixelherodev> Yes. And frankly, I find that pathetic of everyone involved. <ajak> because you're arguing something that isn't empirical lol <Josh_2> Oh sorry [15:36] <Josh_2> It's philosophical right <Josh_2> our response to a virus that isn't killing anyone anymore is philosophical right <Josh_2> gotta make sure we read Das Kapital to decide our response <dmb> marxist want to kill the human nature want to ownership and competition, and captitalists want to bow down to corporations, both sides suck [15:37] *** Psyb3rN4ut (~psybernau@ has joined channel #gentoo-chat <pixelherodev> Nobody provided evidence. Everyone is merely asserting their own worldviews as fact and attacking the other side. Seriously, this "discussion" should just stop. Nobody is seriously attempting to convince anyone of anything - or if they are, they're so bad at it that they're making things worse. <Milo-> this being one of the biggest problems beyond death toll of covid. <nerds> [From ‘brain fog’ to heart damage, COVID-19’s lingering problems alarm scientists | Science | AAAS] <Milo-> Even if you are not elderly person or in the risk group <Josh_2> Milo-: what is this evidence for? <Josh_2> This is from July 31st <Josh_2> Oh no wu flu hurts people!! <Chainsaw> pixelherodev: Not far away from declaring the channel a COVID-free zone. <Milo-> Long term effects <Chainsaw> pixelherodev: Or giving up with it, either way. [15:38] <pixelherodev> Chainsaw: I mean, I don't blame you, but I'd be disappointed if that happened <Josh_2> But even hospitalizations are super low... <Milo-> There are studies showing that even if you don't get to intense care, you may still have massive side effects for years to come. <Milo-> or even if you don't go to hospital <doc235> i wear amask when i go out because without it no one will wait on you. but i am in a very high risk but don't care <Josh_2> it clearly says "hat 87% of a patient cohort hospitalized for acute COVID-19 was still struggling 2 months later." <Josh_2> But hospitalizations are low <pixelherodev> Chainsaw: But I don't expect you to take *your* time trying to explain to people how to have proper discussions <Milo-> As a country, they don't want people to have that kind of a risk in their hands <Milo-> which is why letting it spread freely is still not a good idea <Josh_2> Luuul [15:39] <Chainsaw> pixelherodev: Well, it's #gentoo-chat, not #gentoo-debate-society <Milo-> Asking for arguments to support decisions and dismissing them instantly, because they don't follow your own selfish agenda. <ajak> Josh_2: hey, empricism man, you can't say luuul to prove your point <Milo-> thank you. <pixelherodev> Chainsaw: yeah, exactly <Josh_2> most folks don't even get symptoms <Chainsaw> pixelherodev: I would be hard-pressed to set standards that way. I'd have to address the root cause and say "no politics". <ajak> Josh_2: doesn't justify allowing everyone to spread it to people it will kill [15:40] <pixelherodev> Honestly, you could reasonably argue that both a) it's a serious problem and b) governments are abusing the situation to accrue more power over their citizens. <pixelherodev> These aren't mutually exclusive views. <ajak> *of course* that's the case <ajak> but more people dead or debilitated in the short term is never a good thing <Josh_2> Shame lockdowns don't work <pixelherodev> Honestly, it largely *is* a philosphical question. <Josh_2> so no point even trying to keep people locked up [15:41] <pixelherodev> Josh_2: that you've not provided evidence of. <shadowdao> What if you locked every individual inside an airtight box for three weeks. <pixelherodev> Why three weeks? Give it three minutes. <pixelherodev> The rule of three right? <shadowdao> That would certainly stop the spread of the virus. <pixelherodev> Three minutes without oxygen, days without water, weeks without food? [15:42] <shadowdao> So lockdowns DO work. =) <pixelherodev> It really boils down to "Is it okay to kill (or allow the deaths of) the elderly in exchange for more freedom for everyone else, given that the lack of freedom is temporary and the deaths are permanent?" <Josh_2> hows pixelherodev <nerds> [[application/pdf] (3.0MiB)] <pixelherodev> and frankly, my answer to that is a resounding "No of course that's not okay" <Josh_2> It's not "more freedom" [15:43] <Josh_2> It's the same freedom <Josh_2> and It's a matter of whether the lockdowns will actually work <Josh_2> but they dont <pixelherodev> Josh_2: > <pixelherodev> Whoops <pixelherodev> "They have not been peer-reviewed" <Josh_2> "The authors identified a negative association between the number of days to any lockdown and the total reported cases per million, where a longer time prior to implementation of any lockdown was associated with a lower number of detected cases per million. " <pixelherodev> That's just an opinion paper, essentially - and you *still haven't provided any data that lockdowns don't work* <Josh_2> <nerds> [Country level analysis of COVID-19 policies - EClinicalMedicine] [15:44] <pixelherodev> That said, I personally am against lockdowns - but you still haven't provided any actual data! <Milo-> Ah, he's like one of those americans shouting "FREEDOM" at everytime when they do something extra stupid <Josh_2> imagine still trusting peer review <ajak> Josh_2: maybe your country is just really bad at it like the US? :) <ajak> if you lockdown and still have tons of people breaking lockdowns... obviously it will look like it isn't working <Josh_2> <nerds> [[2005.02090] Did COVID-19 infections decline before UK lockdown?] <ajak> or if lockdowns are not strict enough <Josh_2> ajak: you sound like a typical commie <Josh_2> communism would work if we just tried a little harder [15:45] <pixelherodev> Frankly, given e.g. I'd readily argue that we should not be locking down and should instead require masks for people who *don't*. We have the ability to *stop* the virus *without* lockdowns. <nerds> ^ ► YouTube :: Why Masks Work BETTER Than You'd Think :: Duration: 07:11 :: Views: 999,605 :: Uploader: minutephysics :: Uploaded: 2020-09-08 :: 63,688 likes :: 2,601 dislikes :: 0 favorites :: 9,606 comments <Josh_2> lockdowns would work if people didn't act like humans <pixelherodev> Whether or not lockdowns work isn't even relevant. <Josh_2> LUL <Milo-> 17:39:30 Josh_2 >> lockdowns would work if people didn't act like humans <Milo-> That's true <Josh_2> if everyone just stayed inside and never moved or had to socialize I'm sure they would work <Milo-> And if people are acting like animals, they shall be controlled like animals. <Milo-> and animals are often kept in cages. * pixelherodev facepalms. [15:46] <Josh_2> "strongly suggest that the decline in infections in England and Wales began before full lockdown, and that community infections, unlike deaths, were probably at a low level well before lockdown was eased. Furthermore, such a scenario would be consistent with the infection profile in Sweden, which began its decline in fatal infections shortly after the UK, but did so on the basis of measures well short of full lockdown." <Josh_2> Keep you in cages for no reason <Josh_2> funny Milo- <Josh_2> Just remember that when anyone tries to claim I'm the fascist <pixelherodev> Milo-, Josh_2: if you two just want to poke each other, can you take it to DMs or something? <Josh_2> I'm the only one who has actively argued against this nonsense [15:47] <pixelherodev> Nobody else needs to see your... how do I put this without violating channel rules... <Josh_2> okay okay I'm done <pixelherodev> Frankly, I think you're both being dumb. I mean, really, [15:48] <dmb> hope you are all wearing masks in this chat <Josh_2> *provided plenty of empirical evidence* * dmb sneezes <dmb> virus can spread over tcp now <pixelherodev> Josh_2: raw data != empirical evidence <Milo-> good thing I use udp <pixelherodev> Opinion papers also != empirical evidence [15:49] <Josh_2> I sent 3 <pixelherodev> Milo-: poking people for amusement is just annoying to everyone else in the chat. <Josh_2> peer review is just opinion fyi <Milo-> pixelherodev noted <pixelherodev> Josh_2: proper peer review is not just "opinion," but I wouldn't call it "fact" either. <Milo-> but what else are you going to do with people who go all in into conspiracies <pixelherodev> It's more like "people tried to prove it wrong and failed" <Josh_2> no, It's just opinion <Chainsaw> Milo-: You send them to #gentoo-conspiracy where they can echo-chamber against each other, presumably? [15:50] <pixelherodev> Milo-: either talk to them reasonably or ignore them? <Milo-> It was obvious from the first moment that there was not going to be any real discussion, since he had already made up his mind and everything opposing his opinion were incorrect to begin with <Josh_2> you are joking right Milo-? <Josh_2> How disingenuous <Milo-> there is absolutely nothing else to say there than to provoke and hopefully shut up the conversation <pixelherodev> Milo-: first rule of internet. Don't. Feed. Trolls. <Josh_2> what <Josh_2> I haven't been trolling <Milo-> mind as well enjoy the ride <iamben> Josh_2: you believe in 5G causing covid and stuff right? <ajak> josh is not a troll he's just stupid <pixelherodev> Provoking people does *not* shut down conversations. <Josh_2> iamben: lul no [15:51] <pixelherodev> ajak, Josh_2: same rule applies here. Trolls / conspiracy theories / gravity denialists / whatever else. <pixelherodev> Don't poke people who aren't in a discussion with the intent to communicate <pixelherodev> Where "communicate" means "participate in a multiple-person discussion instead of shouting the same talking points repeatedly" <Josh_2> What [15:52] <Josh_2> What are you talking about <iamben> Josh_2: im surprised, you seem to be have perfect level of confident ignorance that would flock to that kind of thing <Josh_2> Literally gave you 3 studies on why lockdown doesn't work, you can ignore the first if you want <iamben> mistaking your ignorance and ignoring of facts, for some kind of righteous rebellion against evil authority <Josh_2> iamben: drool <Josh_2> >ignoring facts [15:53] <Josh_2> >only person who provided any facts at all <iamben> not all of them drool, but some do <dmb> emerge --oneshot covid_vaccine <ajak> Josh_2: one non-peer reviewed study for one country doesn't even close to prove your point <Josh_2> You should all stop acting so religious <Josh_2> ajak: 3 <pixelherodev> Honestly, if I was a mod here then more than half the people participating would have been banned. On both "sides". <iamben> pixelherodev: off-topic chans get like this <Josh_2> <nerds> [Country level analysis of COVID-19 policies - EClinicalMedicine] <iamben> that's why im glad to only have authority in a chan with strict topic rules <nerds> [[application/pdf] (3.0MiB)] <nerds> [[2005.02090] Did COVID-19 infections decline before UK lockdown?] <Chainsaw> pixelherodev: It would have become quite a large group. It might have been seen as... heavy-handed. [15:55] <Josh_2> pixelherodev: you shouldn't worship peer review like It's the pinnacle of truth <nerds> [Peer review: a flawed process at the heart of science and journals] <Chainsaw> pixelherodev: But if we collectively get tired of Josh_2, it could be democratic. Let me know. <ajak> hasn't that already happened, long ago? <Josh_2> wow <Milo-> Yes, instead of peer review, you should always check what random web sites say about it instead. [15:56] <Josh_2> I didn't say that <Milo-> especially youtube comments are the best place to confirm your own theory <Josh_2> Just don't act like peer review is some infallible process <Nickli> and random website is infallible? [15:57] <pixelherodev> Josh_2: funny that you say that after having linked a peer reviewed paper :P <TheRealJohnGalt> maybe nothing is infallible... <pixelherodev> I guess I can cross the lancet one off of the list. <pixelherodev> Chainsaw: that was *not* my point. At all. <Josh_2> TheRealJohnGalt: tell me about it <iamben> Josh_2: is peer review inherently communist? [15:58] <pixelherodev> The solution to people being misinformed isn't to shut them out of discussions - or trying to shout over them to "explain" why they're wrong. Booting people into echo chambers would make the situation worse. <iamben> as in, evil commie crap <pixelherodev> Nor is it baiting and provoking them. I mean, really. <Josh_2> iamben: How about you look at what I linked and perhaps you will understand <Josh_2> I don't have to spoon feed you iamben you are a big boy <Chainsaw> pixelherodev: I wouldn't dream of shouting over him. This is why I carefully imply my points and never explicitly state them. <iamben> Josh_2: i dont have time for that <Josh_2> then be quiet <doc235> lol <iamben> Josh_2: i have too much time for that [15:59] <Josh_2> ʕ·͡ᴥ·ʔ <doc235> just for the record i am against lockdown and masks <iamben> "i think lockdowns can work and are working" "you sound like a typical commie" <doc235> :) [16:00] <pixelherodev> Milo-: <nerds> [The Minds of Conspiracy Theorists Can Be Changed, Scientists Say] <pixelherodev> I think that the best solution to conspiracy theories is to teach critical thinking. <iamben> doc235: just because you want to die, doesn't mean others deserve to die <Josh_2> Anyway when you guys have got off your high horse and take the time to evaluate the evidence I have provided instead of just circle jerking about how I'm the crazy one despite being the only one who provided any evidence for what I said I'll be here to listen <pixelherodev> Instead of to attack the theorists for being human and having brains which are stupid. <Milo-> pixelherodev but come on, do we want to have them among ourselves? <pixelherodev> (because all brains are stupid) <iamben> Josh_2: you are the crazy one for sure <Josh_2> it just makes it very clear to me that this is not a matter of empirical evidence but a religious matter [16:01] <Milo-> I like it when crazy people come with warning labels. <ajak> Josh_2: you're the only one talking about religion <pixelherodev> Milo-: whereas I don't refer to *people* as crazy but *beliefs* <Josh_2> you are one of a few acting religiously ajak <Chainsaw> pixelherodev: I can't hear him all the way down there. My horse is too high. <Josh_2> imagine being confronted with contrary evidence and doubling down <ajak> crucify me! i think killing people is bad, i'm a sinner! <pixelherodev> Josh_2: not all evidence is equal. If it were, then every debate would end with both sides changing their minds. [16:02] <Josh_2> It's almost like cognitive dissonance is a real think <iamben> as if Josh_2 isnt on a high horse right now! <pixelherodev> Josh_2: so is confirmation bias, illusory pattern perception, etc. <Josh_2> Only the evidence you provide is good and what I provide is not <pixelherodev> That's not what I said at all. <pixelherodev> I've been very explicit about not agreeing with *either* "side" here. <Josh_2> evidence contrary to what you believe is nonsense <Josh_2> evidence that supports what you believe is great right <pixelherodev> Nope. [16:03] <pixelherodev> All evidence should be considered equally suspect. <Josh_2> pixelherodev: well what you have written hasn't come across that way <pixelherodev> Josh_2: really? I suggest looking over it a bit more :P <Josh_2> if that is the position you have taken then I apologize for my abrasiveness pixelherodev <iamben> come down off your high horse Josh_2 <Josh_2> iamben: don't have time for that *** SkunkyFone (~skunky@unaffiliated/skunky) has quit: Remote host closed the connection <pixelherodev> I've just been trying to deescalate this, but I'm apparently alone in wanting that. <iamben> here, read all these 200 pages of scientific studies before you reply any more [16:04] <iamben> if you don't, you are a religious commie <iamben> on a super high horse <Josh_2> iamben: ʕ·͡ᴥ·ʔ <Josh_2> now you are talking my language *** jdgr (601c428b@gateway/web/cgi-irc/ has joined channel #gentoo-chat <Josh_2> labcoats destroyed <ajak> <pixelherodev> iamben: "here, let me insult you and everything you believe in and then complain when you continue believing things I think are wrong" <nerds> [[image/jpeg] (37.5KiB)] <Josh_2> shame that the only form of "evidence" we are allowed to provide is empirical [16:05] <Josh_2> not my fault that most of it comes from muh science <pixelherodev> I'd argue the most important value to a scientist is skepticism. <iamben> Josh_2: you lose a bit of credibility when you start calling people "commies" for their opinions on pandemic handling <Josh_2> iamben: who cares? this is a religious argument anyway <Josh_2> surely if we are all rational beings who only follow the evidence my credibility shouldn't matter [16:06] <iamben> or is it one of communism vs capitalism? <Josh_2> only the evidence I have provided <pixelherodev> Okay, so basically, to summarize: everyone here on both "sides" is more into provoking and attacking the other than actually proving a point. This isn't a discussion, or a debate, or even an argument, it's closer to a stick measuring contest (which I think I can just barely say without violating the rules?). <Josh_2> uhm [16:07] <Josh_2> I disagree <iamben> pixelherodev: this is a court of law <iamb